The Arab Peace Initiative

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  Coffeeman (Andrew) January 13, 2009 at 9:11 am

  Frank, thats very enlightening. To be honest i hadnt looked into this before, but very good to see where the Arab heads of state can aim towards.
  Thank you for the post dude – Always learning! I agree, that the process needs to be initiated by the Middle east for the middle east.. but supported by western nations as needed.. rather than a hand being forced, as i believe that will cause unneeded friction, possibly causing deeper divides? (my un-educated thoughts)

  Coffeeman

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  Andras January 13, 2009 at 12:26 pm

  Frank,

  Unfortunately you are wrong. Hamas and Hezbollah both rejected the Arab Peace Initiative several times since 2002. It is obviously unacceptable to Israel as well.
  That means that it is accepted by everyone except the parties involved.
  There’s not much point talking about it…

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  Frank January 13, 2009 at 12:36 pm

  Hi Andras,

  That’s interesting. I haven’t read anything to give a position on it from Hezbollah, but was of the understanding (having read it in a few places) that Hamas had agreed to it. Can you give me the sources that cite their rejection? I’d be interested to follow that up.

  Also, My understanding is that Israel had not outrightly rejected it, but had issue with the problem of repatriation of the refugees and based on that weren’t willing to accept it. That doesn’t make it dead in the water in my mind.

  Would love to get those sources.

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  Frank January 13, 2009 at 12:44 pm

  After another quick look it seems that Hamas is divided over it with different messages coming from different parts of the organisation (to be expected considering their charter), Fatah endorses it and Israel has expressed support for it with a need to negotiate some of the details. The Wiki article I was just looking at also makes a quick mention of Hezbollah’s rejection.

  I still believe it adequately expresses the desire of the average citizen and represents the moderate position within all groups well, therefore I still think it’s the best move forward.

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative

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  Andras January 13, 2009 at 1:26 pm

  Frank,

  You can find the sources in the Wikipedia article that you referred to.

  In my opinion the bottom line in this conflict is that the Qur’an clearly states that a land once owned by muslims will always have to belong to muslims. This means that no matter what they say or sign, fundamental muslims will always see it as their religious duty to keep killing Isrelis until there is none of them left in Palestine. On the other hand the Bible tells the people of Israel that their land is their everlasting inheritance.

  To be honest Frank, I think we will have wait for the return of Jesus Christ to bring peace to Israel / Palestine. I see this battle as much more than a battle between humans and it will need much more than humans to end it.

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  Frank January 13, 2009 at 1:37 pm

  Thanks Andras. It’s probably not a topic we’re going to entirely agree on, though I do think the person, teachings and example of Jesus have a lot to offer to any move towards peace in the area.

  I’m hopeful and have a belief for peace in the area in my lifetime, or at least, some large steps towards it.

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  Damian January 13, 2009 at 3:08 pm

  the Qur’an clearly states that a land once owned by muslims will always have to belong to muslims

  On the other hand the Bible tells the people of Israel that their land is their everlasting inheritance

  …and therein lies the problem eh?

  I think we will have wait for the return of Jesus Christ

  …or people could perhaps try putting issues of faith and scriptural interpretation on the back-burner when it comes to negotiations of land ownership rights.

  Regardless of our personal feelings on the truth of our respective scriptures we know for sure that it is wrong that innocent children are being killed by the munitions of both sides.

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  Frank January 13, 2009 at 3:12 pm

  Well said Damian.

  I stated to some young people on the weekend that if our theology and beliefs lead us to support the killing of non-combatants without critiquing or questioning those who engage in the killing then our theology is wrong – whether it be Christianity or Islam.

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  Damian January 13, 2009 at 3:18 pm

  And to that I say Amen!

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  Esther January 14, 2009 at 1:36 pm

  Hi Frank, Excuse me while I interupt you two patting yourselves on the back
  I was looking into the Arab Peace iniative a little and also found that recently Iran completely freaked out that anyone should think that they were considering making peace with Israel.
  Apparently they ran promotion ads in arab newspapers for the peace plan, which included flags of the nations involved. Iran was most insulted that its flag was included. Other Arab papers also refused to run the political ad because of the inclusion of the star of David. An indication of how far some people might have to go for the normalisation with Israel.
  Israel hasn’t yet accepted the peace plan as it stands for several reasons, one being that Israel is expected to return to its pre 1967 borders including giving up the Golan Heights etc, and fulfill all the conditions before the individual arab nations consider whether or not they will grant peace.
  I also wonder how far Islam itself would have to change in order to accept true peace with anyone not just Israel.
  http://www.thereligionofpeace.com This website seems to indicate quite a lot.
  Thank you also for your previous post Frank in answer to our questions, I think David and Peter said that they were going to comment on it so I won’t. Of course if they took you up on your earlier plea of praying for your humility they may be otherwise busy for some time yet. (it’s a joke, really)

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  Frank January 14, 2009 at 2:19 pm

  Iran isn’t part of the League of Arab States, so it’s no surprise that it does not support it. I was already aware that Iran was against the initiative.

  I would say that it would have been an oversight on the part of whoever designed the ad to include the flag of Iran… or a deliberate provocation.

  I am also aware, as mentioned in these comments and in the post, that Israel has not accepted the plan for various reasons.

  I can’t comment on random ads in newspapers. What I have demonstrated support for is the text of the initiative -that which officially exists on paper and was forwarded by the Arab League. My support for that isn’t going to change anytime soon, not even in the face of sites who exist simply to criticize Islam.

  I’ll take the last comment as a joke as intended.

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  Frank January 14, 2009 at 2:23 pm

  … by the way, do you actually know any Muslims? You seem quite determined to paint the entire religion according to its more extreme, violent elements.

  I won’t deny that these exist and that the Qu’ran offers justification for violence (so feel free not to point out quotes from the Qu’ran, I’ve read it more than once) but to question the ability of the wider Islamic community to live in peace seems to ignore the good will and very human desires for peace amongst the majority.

  Painting them according to their most extreme elements would be like them stereotyping us according to the KKK, the Lord’s Resistance Army in northern Uganda or any other militant, predominantly violent in nature, Christian group.Then there’s our own violent past – the Crusades etc that actually saw “Christian Soldiers” making Muslim blood flow in the streets. Maybe, via the more extreme elements of Islam (the minority) we, the “Christian” west, are reaping what was sown a long time ago.

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  Frank January 14, 2009 at 2:33 pm

  and one last comment When talking about true peace and asking the question about whether any Islamic nation can actually live in true peace with anyone, surely we must ask the same question of our own empire – the west.

  Our own lives have been built on the backs of romping over the resources of other nations, wars and military might. The west didn’t get where it is via peaceful means… the rest of the world was pretty much raped and pillaged to create the empire we’re a part of and that empire is protected by the biggest war machines this world has ever seen.

  The west doesn’t live in true peace, it lives by being able to make the biggest threats with the biggest weapons and the biggest economies… so if we are to question the ability of others to live in “true” peace, we must also look at ourselves.

  I think I’ve finished ranting… for now

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  Flendolyn January 14, 2009 at 7:52 pm

  I’ve noted a few times people quoting things that come from the Qu’ran that seem to inflame this debate and little cause for hope of a peaceful resolution, and I’m wondering if there’s something going on there in the interpretation. I could take the Bible and quote from it (but very wrongly interpret it) as justification for all sorts of atrocities. I’d be keen to know how these quotes are interpreted by the more moderate Islamic groups. I’m showing my complete ignorance here – what language was it originally written in? Has it gone through the many translations that the Bible has?

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  Frank January 14, 2009 at 9:36 pm

  Hi Flendolyn,

  The Qu’ran was originally written in Arabic. The writings done in English are not seen as translations as it is not believed that the words of Allah can be translated literally, so at best, English renditions are said to be an offering of the “an explanation of the meanings” of the Qu’ran.

  I’ve got two editions if you would like to borrow one for an extended period of time to have a look through, but as with the Bible, trying to read and understand it without being able to bounce it around with other people can be very difficult.

  For a good introduction, good ole Wikipedia is a worthy source:
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qur%27an

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  david January 15, 2009 at 3:08 pm

  Hi,

  We cannot judge Islam by what the Muslims do, and we cannot judge Christianity by what the Christians do. You have to look at the source of their beliefs: What do their books say? Whose example are they following?

  Christians cannot justify fighting and killing in the name of God by their Bible or by the example of Jesus. Any time Christians do these sorts of things, they are going against their faith. On the other hand, Muslims can justify fighting and killing in the name of Allah by the Quran and by the example of Muhammad. When Muslims do these sorts of things they are being good followers of their faith.

  Hate Islam, but love Muslims.

  Esther,
  I am writing a reply for ‘Israel and Israel’, it is just taking me a long time.

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  Frank January 15, 2009 at 3:37 pm

  I’m not going to sink into a tit-for-tat over whether or not Islam is inherently violent.

  The point is that there is a valid majority position within Islam that affirms that needless violence is not representative of their religion. This article represents that position well:
  http://www.globalwebpost.com/farooqm/writings/islamic/muhammad.htm

  Christians do justify killing in the name of God by the Bible. It’s ignorant to believe otherwise. It’s not too hard to do an internet search and find some with some fairly developed and intricate exegesis’ to justify racism, violence and various other things that the likes of you and I would condemn. It was done in the past by Christians and there are groups who would do it now and it would not be against their faith or their understanding of the Bible.

  Both books are about interpretation. I’m not Muslim, so clearly I do not agree with the Qu’ran, but I’m also not silly enough to deny the validity of the moderate side who also take the Qu’ran very seriously and deny the actions of the extremists.

  The problem here is that many Christians want to demonize Islam, so we listen to the extremists who we revile and we find ways to validate their expression of Islam. In so doing, we choose to sideline the moderates as less than devout. It annoys me when people do that with Christians when the expression of the Christian faith is so diverse, so I’m afraid I cannot do it with Muslims when their expression is so obviously diverse as well.

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  Frank January 15, 2009 at 3:40 pm

  Oh, and the books are simply books without people to interpret them… so no, we cannot simply be judged by our books. Christianity is about way more than the Bible.

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  Frank January 15, 2009 at 3:47 pm

  … and let’s not forget what this post is about. It’s not about Islam, it’s about a peace initiative proposed by the League of Arab nations. It’s interesting that you guys would choose to sideline that proposal by trying to imply that the nations that have put it forward aren’t capable of living in peace.

  It sounds to me like you’re trying to avoid affirming any decent steps towards peace and are more interested in some Christian end times game where the people of Israel are simply pawns in that scenario, rather than actually being interested in peace being found in the area and actually being interested in the good of the people of Israel at this very point in time rather than some future time.

  If the Arab nations have offered peace, isn’t it more constructive to find ways to affirm it than simply find every excuse to not bother listening? If your theology encourages you to follow that path then it’s destructive and we don’t share it.

  “Hate that theology, but love you”

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  Frank January 15, 2009 at 3:51 pm

  … hopefully none of that sounds harsh. It’s certainly not written in that tone or with any sense of hostility

  Out of interest, do any of you – Peter, Esther, Andras and David, know each other? I find it awefully coincidental that you all only comment on the posts that I write connected to Israel. If there is a connection, I’d be curious to know what it is

  Peace.

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  david January 16, 2009 at 5:05 pm

  Yeah,

  we’re all part of the same cult.

  Sister Esther looks after the children and is an expert in Islamic studies and Monkeys.

  Peter is in charge of the Bibles and Bullets cupboard, he’s always having to fix the door as it falls off its runners for some reason.

  I look after the Bean section as I have a great knack for tasty food. It’s amazing what a pinch of smoked paprika will do!

  Andras is in charge of membership, he has a mean pitch convincing the ‘fallen ones’ to join. I think he mentioned the other day that we were up to 143 998.

  We were optimistic that you and Flendolyn might join us.

  Sorry Damian, there really wouldn’t be enough room for one more, but if you’re lucky, you may be reincarnated as Dawkins.

  Someones coming! I better go as we are only allocated five minutes per day on the computer. There’s only one computer and someone has slopped beans on the screen.

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  Frank January 16, 2009 at 6:44 pm

  

  Absolutely brilliant! David, that put a smile on my face. Thanks for closing off what was a wonderful day for me with a stroke of genius. Bravo!

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